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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. MBisanz talk 02:59, 25 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Minim football teams of the University of Notre Dame[edit]

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Minim football teams of the University of Notre Dame (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)
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Article about the football team for a grade school on Notre Dame's campus. All sourcing is either from Notre Dame's student newspaper (so not particularly independent or reliable) or hyperlocal game write ups. Mostly appears to be WP:FANCRUFT. It's possible that a short write up could be added to History of Notre Dame Fighting Irish football, but not a full article. GPL93 (talk) 21:39, 17 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of American football-related deletion discussions. GPL93 (talk) 21:39, 17 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Indiana-related deletion discussions. GPL93 (talk) 21:39, 17 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Sports-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU(T) 21:42, 17 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Only the first reference is independent and it is about the Minims department as a whole and not the football team. Mention of the Minims Department would likely be most appropriate at History of the University of Notre Dame, but under this current title and scope of article deletion may be the best option. Best, GPL93 (talk) 02:23, 18 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. I'm persuaded by GPL93. This article focuses exclusively on the results of football games played by grammar school boys. I can't think of another grammar school where we have stand-alone articles on the football program (or any other athletic program), and I think it would be a very bad precedent to start creating such articles. In the final analysis, (1) the scope is simply too narrow to be encyclopedic; (2) the article is largely based on coverage in the school newspaper (the Notre Dame Scholastic) which is not WP:INDEPENDENT and does not count for purposes of a WP:GNG assessment; and (3) WP:NHSPHSATH requires more than local coverage to support stand-alone articles on pre-high school athletes. The creator (User:Murphanian777) has contributed many interesting and encyclopedic articles, and I hope that deletion of this article will not discourage his continued participation. Cbl62 (talk) 05:04, 18 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete I don't see any place at the main university article or the Fighting Irish football article to tabulate the annual records of teams of ten-year-olds. The Notre Dame Fighting Irish are an entirely separate team from children who played the sport. I could see some mention at History of the University of Notre Dame that it used to have a connected elementary school and secondary school, but I doubt football was even the only sport played and this does not need a merge any more than other grade or high schools need explication about their athletic teams. Reywas92Talk 22:47, 17 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. While the article is unorthodox and locally sourced, I do not believe it merits a deletion. I know articles on grammar and high school football teams are scarcely accepted, but I believe that the Minims are notable in their clear uniqueness. What other University do you know of that has sponsored a grade school program and hired coaches to help the players achieve undefeated seasons? Several of these coaches have also acquired enough notability to be granted their own Wikipedia pages, such as Notre Dame varsity football coach Henry McGlew and the Olympian Eugene Oberst. The Minim program itself, along with the Junior department, should be granted their own articles, either by myself or another editor. Their rivalry with the junior department is equally unheard of. Before discovering the Minim vs. Ex-Minim games, I had never known that there was a defined football rivalry between a high school and a bunch of ten-year olds. I see no dangerous precedence being set here because the Minims are not just a commonplace kindercare, but a vital organ of one of the top universities, and football teams, in the United States. Ultimately I am biased, both as a fan and the creator, but I really see no harm in allowing the page to remain. Murphanian777 (talk) 06:20, 18 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Murph -- I do respect the effort that went into this article, but the significant coverage (see WP:SIGCOV) in reliable, independent sources simply appears to be lacking. My suggestion is to search for an outlet covering Notre Dame history, Indiana history, or the like, and see if they would be interested in publishing your research on this topic. Cbl62 (talk) 15:00, 18 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
It should also be noted that at the time, it was not really that uncommon or unique for Catholic universities to operate and support lower schools and in turn support their sports teams. While some were simply dissolved like the Minims and Juniors at Notre Dame, many current high schools such as Boston College High School (which at one point had students as young as 11), Fordham Preparatory School, St. Peter's Preparatory School were all at one time lower and/or secondary departments of other universities that eventually were separated from their parent institution. Best, GPL93 (talk) 16:48, 18 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
More broadly, compare University School (disambiguation) and University High School. Also, I don't see the evidence that Eugene Oberst was "hired" to coach the Minims. Oberst was a student at ND when he coached the Minims. It was only later that he competed in the Olympics, etc. Indeed, the Wiki bio of Oberst doesn't even mention in the Minims. Cbl62 (talk) 17:25, 18 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep There's nothing WP:GNG that discounts coverage for being "local" only that the coverage must be "significant" -- this topic seems to be a worthy inclusion for its historical value and coverage details. That we don't have a lot of online sources available for this time frame is no shock to me, and I believe that including this article does make Wikipedia better. It appears to be a worthy exception to the practice of not having articles for sports at this level.--Paul McDonald (talk) 14:35, 18 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The level of coverage is not uncommon from any other low-level scholastic team. And game reports are generally not considered to be significant, so that leaves only publications from the school itself. Best, GPL93 (talk) 14:42, 18 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Paul -- I agree that local coverage is not barred, but school newspapers like the Scholastic are not considered independent and therefore do not count in a GNG analysis. If the Scholastic articles are discounted, I just don't see the significant coverage that would warrant a stand-alone article. Moreover, I believe WP:NHSPHSATH should be read to require more than local coverage to support stand-alone articles on pre-high school athletes. I realize that Notre Dame fans think their school is special (and it is in many, many ways), but a Wikipedia article reporting on the results of football games played by grammar-school boys (ages 10-14) is a major stretch. Cbl62 (talk) 15:00, 18 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I'm also seeing sources like "South Bend News-Times" and "South Bend Tribune" and "Louisville Courier-Journal". I agree the "Scholastic" articles should not be used to measure notability while I don't object to their inclusion for verificaiton. But the other papers cited do point toward notability. That's my take.--Paul McDonald (talk) 16:33, 19 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I'd argue that game writeups and season previews from the local paper is incredibly common and not notability lending. If it were, pretty much every high school football team, as well as many from grammar and middle schools, in the United States would meet notability standards and merit an article. That leaves only the Courrier-Journal, which is about Kentucky native Eugene Oberst's senior season at Notre Dame and makes a quick mention of him also helping coach the Minims. Best, GPL93 (talk) 18:53, 19 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Wondering if there might be a better place to put this information (in another article).--Paul McDonald (talk) 20:50, 20 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I wondered that too. The journal article I cited above suggests that the Minim program school as a whole might be sufficiently noteworthy to warrant an article. I just think this article (focused narrowly on football game scores) is too narrow to be considered notable. Cbl62 (talk) 21:11, 20 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete, lacks significant, non-routine, independent coverage. And I agree that allowing such hyper-local stuff (whether it is a youth sports team or player, or some local theatre company only discussed in the village newspaper, or some other thing of very local interest) would open the floodgates for 20th century trivia (the period local newspapers flourished the most). Fram (talk) 16:42, 18 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete, not enough in-depth coverage from independent, reliable sources to pass WP:GNG. Onel5969 TT me 17:07, 18 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete The only secondary source in the article is from the local paper, which isn't enough. There may be other places to publish this history, but as it stands it fails WP:GNG and probably WP:OR as well. SportingFlyer T·C 18:16, 18 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete Only local sources. Nigej (talk) 20:21, 18 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete we don't need an article on ten-year-olds playing football unless there's extremely good sourcing; the sourcing we have is just very local coverage of results. (At least I assume it's ten year olds playing, the article says Minims "taught children from around the age of five to twelve years" but there aren't any sources about who these players are). power~enwiki (π, ν) 04:40, 22 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete - this isn't even Interscholastic athletics, it's intramural. A school program only mentioned in school publications is notable. 174.254.193.220 (talk) 05:18, 22 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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